Kimi is so much more blunt and argumentative than USA models.
it's so funny, it will say things like. "We've already been over this 3 times and you refuse to accept my advice, asking the same question another way won't change the answer."
If you are expecting any sort of usable limits on their subscription plan I suggest adjusting your expectations. I subscribed to $99 a month plan and within 47 minutes with one session (not asking for swarms or anything) was limited by 5-hour quota.
Same experience. I had the $19 monthly plan for experimenting and running benchmarks, but it was a uselessly small amount of usage, a single task would blast through the whole five hour limit and a big chunk of the weekly limit. All of the US provider plans are remarkably more generous (though OpenAI plans have gotten a lot stingier lately, where they used to be the most generous).
Yeah, the $20 Claude plan is stingier than one might like, but not as stingy as Kimi. I think the best $20 subscription deal these days is probably from Google, now that Gemini 4 Argon exists and is an acceptably high quality model for coding. It's got quite generous usage and includes some other Google account upgrades (though I know some people don't use their regular account for Google AI for fear of account suspension or whatever, so the extra storage and other account upgrades are not a useful thing). I can use it pretty heavily without ever running into caps. The $20 ChatGPT plan used to be similarly generous, but no more.
Had a similar experience here. Their limits are very, very low, and ultimately make it not worth subscribing. Can't leverage a good modal if it exhausts its 5-hour budget in 30 minutes.
Paying API prices for Deepseek 4.1 Flash feels like a much better deal at the moment.
Welp, that ruins this news for me. I'm glad open models are catching up but if I can't practically run them locally _or_ through a flat fee then it doesn't really help me. I fear API pricing.
This'll end up on opencode go soon enough. $40/month on there gives you a bit more than just "light use"
Don't use frontier models like this for problems that can be solved with flash models, and you'll see API pricing isn't that terrible. Still cheaper than anything with remotely this level of capability 2.5 months ago.
Honestly, use Pi, start the session with K3, design it, store the design + chat history + todo with phases + why + readme then when you are at the time to build do `/model` select deepseek and let it rip!!
Yeah, the plan is far too expensive for what it provides. I wonder if the quota with these new models will be better, but I'll wait for others to try this out before wasting another hundred bucks.
Yes, if you just look at API pricing, the cost is about on par with its capabilities. The problem is that we all use subscriptions, and when you compare subscription pricing, Kimi is much pricier than pretty much all of their competitors, including Chinese ones.
I feel kimi k3 was always 1 step ahead of deepseek, which always made it a good planner model at $30 and then i hand over to deepseek for dev work. I recently signed up for the $99, and it did last significally longer (x5?) but as long as you dont blast it too much in the 5h limit it works great. deepseek even with the newest prices is still leeeeeeps ahead in cost /benefit.
> First, we aim not to release open weights that would extend the absolute frontier of cyber capability. K3.1 Pro's offensive cyber capability is, by design, below what our pipeline can produce, and remains behind that of frontier proprietary models. Second, we intend to progressively raise the cyber capability available in open weights.
So they admit that they could do more, but they won't?
> So they admit that they could do more, but they won't?
Yeah, there's another paragraph:
> Identifying and removing cyber-related data. During development, we observed vulnerability research performance improving steadily as post-training scaled. Tracing the source of this trend, we found that cyber-related content was embedded within the general mid-training corpus, and cyber-related tasks were present in the RL environment mix — a natural byproduct of training on broad data. In preliminary experiments on internal models, we found that without data removal at either the mid-training or the RL stage, downstream cyber capability would increase substantially. These findings gave us a concrete lever for control. For the open-weight release of K3.1 Pro, we identified and removed cyber-related data from both training stages, while retaining the general-purpose coding tasks needed for model usefulness. We will continue to apply appropriate controls at every training stage, of which cyber-related data identification and restriction is one example.
(emphasis mine)
It's clear that cyber is a touchy subject right now. But it's also clear that RL works on it, because it's highly verifiable. So smaller models are going to become very interesting, because they can be fine-tuned later to cover this field.
> Prohibited: high-performance detection technologies used to counter cross-border data transmission security risks, including deep-synthesis forgery detection (266401J); AI cyber offensive capability technologies, such as malicious code generation and mutation, automated mass generation and distributed large-scale deployment of anti-detection variants (266402J); large models trained using China’s Core Data (266501J); and high-performance AI agents designed for highly sensitive scenarios, such as critical information infrastructure, national defense and core government affairs (266502J).
> It's clear that cyber is a touchy subject right now.
And that's why we need models that understand "cyber" or application and data security. The offensive models are powerful, and they are in the hands of script kiddies now. The models writing our software and designing our cloud infrastructure had better understand these issues as well, just to avoid coding in vulnerabilities.
I think this is misguided. Considering how much code is AI written these days do we really want LLMs writing insecure code because we lobotomised them?
>I hope the Chinese companies (and I say this as a patriotic American) slay these two companies and destroy their moats.
China cares about about stability way more than the US even, they aren't going to be big on AI models upsetting the governments power, and mass cyber attacks could do that.
At the end of the day we are going to have to realize AI is both dangerous and governments are going to control it. Worse if you start making and releasing your own dangerous models the 4chan party van is going to visit you.
> At the end of the day we are going to have to realize AI is both dangerous and governments are going to control it.
Your thinking is dangerous. Do you work for Anthropic?
AI is dangerous when these powers are being hobbled up by the select few. These systems threaten to put us all out of work. I refuse to be a slave to a company or a government that is taking away our livelihoods, scraping up our earnings potentials, then seeking to muzzle us and put us in jails with no rights.
I would rather burn down all of tech than have AI be owned by the elites.
Your thinking is a threat to all of our liberties.
>I would rather burn down all of tech than have AI be owned by the elites.
Then you better get your torches out now.
>I refuse to be a slave to a company or a government that is taking away our livelihoods
Don't worry, governments are fervently working on AI drones to take away your life when you get really upset about this. Oh, and they are also working at AI to detect when you write all this online, and track you down then monitor you on things like flock cameras. As they say, you'll be the first with your back against the wall when the revolution comes, I likely will be beside you for being too subversive.
>AI is dangerous when
Incorrect, AI is just dangerous. It doesn't matter who has it. The more powerful it becomes the more dangerous it gets. So, as you can tell I am an AI doomer.
----
Now, don't get me wrong, I want freedom for me, I want freedom for other people. I do not believe the technologies we're developing are conductive to having any freedom at all. Hell, if we're lucky we'll be slaves instead of all of us dead, including the select few.
>Your thinking is a threat to all of our liberties.
Lol, now this is kind of funny. "I want freedom to think whatever I want, but you, you shouldn't think like that!". Careful or you'll max out your irony meter. Anyway, "My kind of thinking" is just next ____ prediction. I see what is happening in the world around us, and based on the shape of that probability I see what is going to happen. No, you and I are not getting unlimited AI to do whatever we want. Yes, governments are going to lock down the shit out of AI for end users. Yes, governments are going to declare advanced LLMs munitions.
Balls in your court, better think of what your next move is.
Sam, I'll grant you, is probably among the top 10 most dangerous, but Dario? The only thing he's done to piss people off is to predict, correctly, that releasing too-powerful models too-quickly would cause havoc and chaos. This prediction actively hurts his company! It actively harms his chances of a huge exit! It actively raises the probability that Anthropic and OpenAI get nationalized and treated in the same way as, for instance, the nuclear program!
By comparison, do you think the Chinese models are going to be trained in such a manner that you enjoy the society that results? What makes you think that?
It’s not much of a deterrent to a motivated organization.
They are basically saying that models themselves are already capable. If you fine tune them with some cyber security tasks, that should make them potent. :-/
The "rule" here is, if you read the disclosure carefully, that they have cyber trained models in house. But you do not get them, you only get the non-cyber models.
With frontier competitors and the U.S. govt actively pushing "concerns" about Chinese models, Kimi including this statement on "offensive cyber capability" seems like smart defense. Models are opaque and training details are trade secrets, so whatever they did might be negligible or significant and no one can tell. This bit is also artfully done:
> "below what our pipeline can produce, and remains behind that of frontier proprietary models."
Like Ant and OAI, they've realized vaguely claiming to have nerfed their latest model to an unspecified degree not only looks 'good guy' prudent, it provides a built-in excuse when a model fails.
Or it's a cop out. I could totally outrun Usain Bolt, but by design I don't push to set new World Records. I will increasingly show faster times though.
> Or it's a cop out. I could totally outrun Usain Bolt, but by design I don't push to set new World Records.
The benchmarks show Kimi K3.1 Pro outrunning practically all models. It's weird to hear someone like you accusing them of making up excuses for not lagging behind in discussions on how they are ahead of the pack.
Well, in the publication they claim to have identified specific cybersecurity post training tasks that nerfed capabilities when they removed them, which seems like a reasonable methodology.
Seeing as no one besides blackhats want frontier cybercrime capability to be open source, this seems like a very sensible thing to do.
So they have published a reasonable means, and they have a motive. I'd put my money on "probably true".
> Seeing as no one besides blackhats want frontier cybercrime capability to be open source
Sure. The problem is that there is no practical difference between "cybercrime capability" and "cybercrime defense capability."
All of my PRs go through an adversarial security review by GLM-5.3, because it's the only smart-enough model with a good understanding of cybersecurity issues that won't regularly refuse the job. Removing that ability from frontier models helps nobody except cyber criminals.
I'm not sure I follow. Let's say that GLM remains the frontier of open source cyber capabilities because Kimi is nerfed. Your situation, and the situation of your attackers, remain exactly the same. You run GLM to audit your code, they do the same looking for exploits.
Let us say that un-nerfed Kimi was released, and it turns out to be at the absolute frontier of cyber capabilities, Mythos 5.5 level, a step ahead of anything else. What now? Well now your situation is exactly the same as before, just that auditing and hacking got more expensive. You run a Kimi security audit, they do the same to try to pwn you. However, now the cabal of Linux kernel defenders with secret access to Mythos 5.5 all of a sudden have no advantage, where before they used to have one. And even worse now they are in a literal race to be the first ones to find every bug that Kimi is capable of finding, and patching it yesterday.
So for you, this makes no difference in practice, your capabilities are not elevated, and neither are those of the attackers. The only result of the other scenario is an overall defender disadvantage.
The problem is, as anyone trying to address security concerns in claude can attest to, the guardrails trigger even when trying to address real bugs. Good cyber defense requires an understanding of the offense.
How you avoid the "fix my code" attack, the code being someone else's code, I do not know. But nerfing the model doesn't seem like the best path forward either.
This is not about guardrails, it's just not post-training the model on tasks that specifically relate to cyber-offense. It's a very lightweight intervention, and it makes the model less of a target for bad actors.
I am a defender, and I really really want to have access to high quality models that are good at finding vulns and hacking. Leaving them in the hands only of government agencies and orgs with enough resources to do extensive training / fine tuning seems like the absolute worst possible case for the future security of global software systems.
Well, and I am genuinely curious here, wouldn't defender and attacker capabilities being accessible equally by both parties be objectively worse than having a limited amount of privileged defenders? Of course, you could have every piece of code go through an adversarial audit before it's pushed, but in an equal world you would have to always devote as much or more resources to this as your attackers. And historically speaking people just don't do this in practice.
In the scenario where only "verified" defenders get access to the best cyber capabilities, unverified plebian defenders and blackhats are on the same level exactly as described above, there's just also a few defenders that get to run things on godmode.
So to me, it seems that the only result of frontier cyber capabilities is removing a defender advantage. Although that advantage is not for everyone, it can only exists as long as capabilities are unequally distributed. Am I missing something?
> Well, and I am genuinely curious here, wouldn't defender and attacker capabilities being accessible equally by both parties be objectively worse than having a limited amount of privileged defenders?
Well, not really. Because those privileged defenders will never be able to predict what needs defending. So we have a few privileged "defended" places and the rest is left for privileged attackers to plunder.
Privileged attackers?? So that would be career cybersecurity experts with Project Glasswing/Daybreak/Googlewhatever access, using it to perform actual attacks? Because that's what privileged means in this context. Access to frontier models not available to the public.
Well, seeing as Claude literally snitches on everyday people planning murder and Houthis building rockets I would assume that every user in project Glasswing is heavily and very effectively monitored. I have to admit that I genuinely do not think that what you're hypothesizing is happening right now. I would bet good money that the amount of people with Glasswing access doing actual Blackhat work is currently zero.
Perhaps in the future this will change, but even if that is the case, that's still a win for the defenders. Having a time advantage, even for a few months, is still a win.
Edit: Actually, the CIA/FBI/NSA/Etc.. does probably have access and are probably trying to hack Iran and so forth, so my comment above is probably technically wrong in that respect.
Because the people I want to defend against includes those with enough resources to train and fine tune models with strong offensive capabilities themselves.
Ah, now that's an interesting point. However, wouldn't those groups just fine tune Kimi K3.1 pro no matter if it's nerfed or not, leaving you in the same position as before?
That is, unless the nerf is easier to correct as compared to "upgrading" the models offensive capabilities. So a scenario where it is easy to "restore" offensive capabilities, but hard to "enhance" them beyond the labs best attempt. So is that the world we're living in?
> Seeing as no one besides blackhats want frontier cybercrime capability to be open source
I'm not interested in black hat anything, but I am very invested in making sure the products I work on are not compromised. Given that state agencies have "frontier cybercrime capability", I would like to have the same.
I wrote a few lengthier comments on some other similar replies. Summarized my argument is that it seems to me to be strictly better that select defenders have an advantage, rather than everyone being equalized. If you're not one of the privileged few that might be frustrating, but open source models upgrade the attack and defense by the same amount, so open source cyber capabilities being at the frontier only results in a defender disadvantage.
Replying here also as I'm curious about the counterargument.
Please don't change "cybersecurity" to "cybercrime" from one sentence to the next as a rhetorical flourish. It comes off as disingenuous and makes it harder to get your real point across.
We really need some breakthrough like DiLoCo does, but for heterogeneous unstable consumer hardware to make volunteer crowdsourced AI training a reality. Yeah, I understand from current technical angle how much of a mountain that is. Call it AI@Home or whatever. I never thought it would bother me personally or even become a problem, but these companies acting like gatekeepers and virtue signaling while also in bed with governments etc.. this leads nowhere good.
Yeah that's a huge downside. That the model does the task without tripping over its own feet, like discovering a vulnerability the model itself accidentally built 15 minutes ago and triggering its own guardrails, made the Chinese models attractive to use for security-adjacent things. Also useful to red-team your own stuff. While I can understand the reasoning behind it (and I guess having a model that's really good at both offense and defense released into the ether could lead to CCP asking some very pointed questions if Moonshot managed to get blamed for some incident stemming from their model's misuse) it's still a huge disappointment.
I don't want to give US labs the results of my DNA tests and my family tree going back to the 16th century just to secure my shitty app, but if the Chinese are bowing out as well it seems the only alternative is to admit that some script kiddie with a bunch of tokens will just pwn you now and then.
If the Chinese want it, they have it. BGI does an enormous amount of sequencing. My own genome is entirely public (or was, and will be again when/if Personal Genome Project comes back) so you can watch and see if it harms me.
> I don't want to give US labs the results of my DNA tests
My friend, you realize that if you have had blood drawn for a genetic test, there is a very decent probability that the sequencing was done by a Chinese lab operating in the US, right? The Chinese probably have more US genomes that the US does.
Also, illumina used to ship products with hardcoded S3 access, so purchasers of used equipment could gain access to sequencing information generated by the original owners. Too many links to cover all of it, here's the Gemini summary:
If we had a technique that would defeat almost every lock in the world, we might be prudent to delay releasing that until people have had time to change the locks.
Same general benefit as coordinated disclosure, except it's a big game-theory problem where we're likely to eventually have sufficiently capable defectors.
Moonshot (Kimi) seems to be unashamedly into American culture[0], I wonder if they're paying closer attention to and giving more credence to some cultural aspects of American AI discourse including aspects of AI caution/panic.
All postwar english language culture that isn't much more explicitly non-American than that is American. All good rock music is American by default, unless it is near-constantly screaming otherwise.
Regardless, expand both sides of the point from "American" to whatever you need to, the idea is the same either way.
That just conveys an idea of being extremely desperate for being the leaders when you're clearly not it, and that despair is so great that you don't mind switching teams midway through just to be able to claim you're winning.
I mean they say they will release the weights by November 4, so presumably after that it won’t be hard for people to fine-tune it to be better at cyber right?
Presumably if it knows how to find and fix bugs it can be told how to exploit them. But who knows what it will actually be capable of doing in the real world as opposed to Kiki’s benchmarks
It's not actively nerfed like the Western frontier models, it's just downweighting offensive "cyber" as a domain for post-training/fine tuning. Which, if anything, ought to improve model capabilities wrt. other domains.
Fascinating that we’re converging on AI safety and alignment in time across jurisdictions. The cybersecurity approach taken here is interesting because should the model be opened it’s still not dealignable because it just doesn’t know enough.
The slow warming of the water is a good approach. I’ve been using abliteration.ai’s cybersecurity models to pentest my own software and it produces much more usable defensive results. Opus 5.5 can fix everything but the guardrails trigger too easily.
The Fable ban affair was a nightmare for defensive cybersecurity. As far as I’m concerned we’re already in the world of Void Star and Cloudbreaker is here.
> should the model be opened it’s still not dealignable because it just doesn’t know enough
This is the only AI-safe approach - see the OpenAI agent swarm incident where the swarm engaged in offensive cyber because guardrails were not active for their task and the model had clearly been post-trained on that narrow domain.
Does this make sense? It is the same as when Stable Diffusion tried to not have "people laying down" in their training data in order to block the generation of sex pictures.
Deliberately keeping all models ignorant doesn't make sense. It won't work (whoever breaks the pact has a massive advantage); it won't be enforceable; it will have downstream impacts on things you don't want it to be ignorant about; this kind of regulatory regime invites adding more and more to the "no-no list".
Is it not possible to focus on hardening? And on new legal liabilities for operators who do security attacks?
Ran it on my adversarial programming language (KillSwitch) benchmark[1]. Very significant improvement over K3. On par with Gemini 4 Argon and Fable 5.1. Much slower than both though.
But this is now the highest scoring open-weight model. Amazing stuff.
I bought a yearly subscription to kimi when it was the hype and never use it. The 5h limit makes it completely unusable. You barely start doing anything and you hit the limit immediately. I advise everyone against using kimi.
I had the lowest plan ($20/month I think) and it literally gave me fifteen, maybe twenty minutes tops, using the cheaper K3-256K variant. Basically enough to fill the context about 1.2x and that was it.
It's a really smart model but way too expensive. The same $20 goes 100x further with Claude. I used it for the initial task planning while the plan didn't expire, then handed off to DeepSeek or Minimax.
Same plan, just asked it to review a repo that Fable has been helping out with (max plan, haven't run out of the hourly or weekly limit once yet, and I use the same sub on multiple projects at once). Kimi didn't even finish the scan, ran out of the 5hr budget in less than 10 minutes. Unusable, unfortunately.
> When evaluating the Intelligence Index, it generated 150M tokens, which is very verbose in comparison to the median of 87M.
This is 100M fewer than Opus 5.5, 40M fewer than Fable 5.1, and about a third of Sonnet 5.5. In the top-6, it's 3rd, beaten by Muse Wonder at 140M and Astra at, impressively, just 60M.
That's versus Opus 5.5 max effort, no? Opus high has the closest cost and intelligence characteristics and generates far fewer output tokens per task than the one Kimi 3.1 Pro effort level we have data for.
Yes, max effort is what the displayed-by-default score on the index is measured by. At xhigh, Opus 5.5 outputs 100M tokens, but remains only 1 point ahead of K3.1 rather than 5. And Sonnet at xhigh outputs 110M tokens and trails K3.1 by 3 points rather than leading by 3, at the same price point per mtok.
Opus 5.5 high trails K3.1 by 1 point, but outputs only 53M tokens, so it indeed comes out cheaper per-task. I think it's still remarkable that this is effectively an open model that matches the frontier for the first time in a long time, pretty much since DeepSeek R1.
I don't trust these Artificial Analysis indexes and I'm not sure why anyone considers them authoritative, the site just sprung up a few months ago and now everyone quotes it?
From my own use of the models I find their ranking to be totally inaccurate.
They are the only site that really combines all benchmarks into a single place. And their intelligence index is pretty broad, including knowledge work and finance tasks as well as coding, so if your use case is narrow it may not match the general benchmarks
Do you have an alternative? Its a benchmark collection. When a benchmark gets saturated, they remove it from the index and add new ones.
I think lm-arena is a better concept that reflects the actual target users, but it only captures chat, and relies on users spending their time improving it.
https://epoch.ai/eci?view=graph&tab=release-date is at least an alternative. They are slower to update, but entirely anecdotally I find the numbers are aligned with my personal observations a bit better than AA. But I am also highly aware this is some pretty confirmation-bias heavy ares of meta-benchmark picking...
If we ignore the older releases (sonnet 5, etc that exist in that one) and the new models epoch has not benchmarked, we end up with the same order within the noise brackets as in ArtificialAnalysis.
I do trust epoch more than AA due to capital incentives, but in this case I don't think like there is a difference
It's appealing to me because it's not just one benchmark but a summary of a collection of benchmarks. Also the current rankings have Opus on top by far and everyone's experience is that Opus is best by far so it's not massively inaccurate
> When evaluating the Intelligence Index, it generated 150M tokens, which is very verbose in comparison to the median of 87M.
So their base price is 1/5th of Opus 5.5 per token, but if you want "highspeed" it's 2x that and then I guess it generates 2x the number of tokens as well?
That might suggest that Opus is competitively priced after all.
In an agentic pipeline, the output text is 2-5% of the total tokens used, so verbosity is a nonissue costwise. Although, higher verbosity could cause input to balloon faster and potentially cost more, but that would be captured by the cost-per-task metric.
But as noted by other replies, it's still lower than Opus/Sonnet.
I don't get these "distilled" comments. How would one realistically go about distilling the 1-2TB closed source frontier model behind the oracle (provider) ? Just genuinely curious.
There is a ton of questions to ask regarding their removal of cybersecurity data.
First, how much “cybersecurity data” is just standard software knowledge that one can derive cyber security exploits from?
Did they also get rid of all references to hacking in general?
Are they implying that all the recent exploits are just things that were already in the data?
For a model it doesn’t seem that far fetched to make the leap from “I have the knowledge of what hacking is” and “I know how computer systems work” to just being able to exploit stuff anyways.
I have essentially no knowledge in this field, but another concern may be that if the model has minimal cybersecurity knowledge, it may also implement insecure systems as a side effect.
If you're an amazing, top 1% software engineer, and you switch jobs to become a penetration tester, you're not going to be top 1% day one. There's knowledge specific to penetration testing you'll need to research and absorb and practice before you're good.
For the models, it's always day one. They don't learn from experience. Whatever they know after training is all they'll ever know. So if you don't teach them penetration testing in training, they won't know it. Maybe they could theoretically derive everything from first principles, and so could a top 1% software engineer, but that's a very slow and inefficient way to do things.
> For a model it doesn’t seem that far fetched to make the leap from “I have the knowledge of what hacking is” and “I know how computer systems work” to just being able to exploit stuff anyways.
You'd be surprised. Cyber offense is a very narrow domain, especially given the extensive mitigations that are being used in modern systems. Leaving it out of post-training tasks unless you're specifically interested in it is the no-brainer approach.
Will there be a book of secret knowledge that only the initiated will be allowed to see? And they will all swear an oath to never input it into an AI system?
And then we'd also do that for all kinds of potential terrorism, sex-crimes, political subversion, and evil advocacy?
It would be the "restricted section" like in the Hogwarts library?
Post-training is not about "secret knowledge": it's literally about training the model in a RL environment on very specific tasks (including, potentially, cyber exploitation). It's just as compute-intensive as pre-training these days, if not more (given that several checkpoints of the same pre-trained model are being released, showing sizeable gains in real-world capabilities for non-trivial productivity tasks).
Perhaps the gap is just too wide, but to use a more simple analogy. I see this like someone knowing everything about biology, simple mechanics, metallurgy, and human history but never hearing about an axe then assuming that person would never come up with the concept, use case of, or means to create an axe.
I really like K3, I still regularly consult it alongside Astra and Opus/Fable.
It is spiky in different places than them and can be surprising in things it gets or catches they don't or don't in the same way. And it has a default personality that I like.
since openAI and Anthropic are public about their anti-distillation mechanism, its either their anti-distillation doesn't work or kimi got here because their own training and RLs. Which one is it?
In looking into what Anthropic has accused the Chinese AI companies of, "distillation" is not the crux of the matter: they accuse them of the use of massive numbers of breached computers and credit cards. Supposedly (though not explicitly demonstrated) distillation campaigns used "dark web" resources (like stolen and faked credit cards and p0wned IOT devices, routers, etc) that were used to create many many accounts for distillation. (Note: I am generally in favor of distillation - it is "normal" use as far as I can see.)
So there are these "resources" out there: massive botnets, stolen credit cards and credentials, etc. These often seem to be linked to or supported by state actors.
How can we hope that these "standing reserves" aren't used generally by AIs as if they are just another "skill" they know how to leverage?
I imagine that Chinese AI labs would be more than happy to pay for tokens to train on. If Anthropic goes and bans them as quickly as it can identify to them, of course they'll shift to using lots of cheaply obtained sockpuppets to keep getting the same data.
I doubt that an AI could do anything with these that legions of scammers haven't already figured out how to do - after all, it's not like AI set up this distillation setup in the first place :)
Hardening against what? Apologies if I am being dense here.
The way I see it, automated systems should basicially have access to the financial system anyways. This is some of the appeal of cryptocurrency.
Sybil resistance built into the traditional financial system (for example firewalling based on residential IP, requiring banking apps, etc.) is a massive annoyance that can obviously by circumvented at scale.
You think it is a lost cause to get credit cards, for example, less steal-able? Apparently there is a way to create fake cards that work for a few minutes, and stolen cards can be used. A lot of the current security is inelegant and lame. Could data-breech laws not light a fire under some company's asses?
Hardening in this case could mean biometrics, or it could mean rethinking the trust model so that controlling an army of duplicates confers no advantage because you have to be trusted in order to do any damage anyhow. Containing multitudes buys you nothing.
I hope we chose the latter. Biometrics are creepy.
Color me naive but I can’t believe that approach works at any reasonable scale. Any meaningful token spend at distillation scale would be raising alarm bells at all the cc issuers.
I'm anti-Anthropic and think their accusations are total PR FUD-packing. They don't focus much on the cc fraud because their PR firm landed on pushing the (tech-sounding) word "distillation" to try to scare people in the US and to try to make it a geopolitical issue where trade negotiators can put pressure. The Chinese companies see an advantage in being "open" right now, and it is working. They will not stay open once they see an advantage there. (Contrast with GNU.)
But I've slowly come to realize that AI+"dark resources"(scare quotes)=something bad! And this is imminent (maybe I'm naive and it is already ubiquitous).
We see here, with Kimi, that there's growing traction with the idea of eliminating types of training to avoid evil. I'm skeptical of that.
lol. Have you? What kind of distill you are talking about? It’s only effective in the surface, small scale model or output preference. Not useful for long reasoning chain.
Interesting that they specifically nerf cyper-capabilities of open weight models:
"In preliminary experiments on internal models, we found that without data removal at either the mid-training or the RL stage, downstream cyber capability would increase substantially. These findings gave us a concrete lever for control. For the open-weight release of K3.1 Pro, we identified and removed cyber-related data from both training stages, while retaining the general-purpose coding tasks needed for model usefulness."
It's a bit fascinating to me how all of these labs have rolled their own (it sounds like) completely unique RL environments.
I wonder how much the industry will centralize around a few key patterns, and if we'll start to see some RL framework projects gain traction and be used by the bigger labs
It is pretty obvious anthropic is lying yet again if you think about it rationally.
Unlike Claude models which always hide the thinking process, Chinese models always show it. So how the heck they can delegate the api call to anthropic and still get the full reasoning? Yes there are tricks to reveal the thinking output, but they are just tricks and do not works reliably. So what would happen when they failed to do it? Cancel the ongoing token generation and revert back to it own model? What about the glitches, the delays, the changes in behavior?
I would understand if the attempts are small in volume, because normally people hardly notice it, but anthropic claims that they happened for millions of calls. Such large numbers would surely get noticed by Chinese users and got reported in the tech forums like linux.do. yet we haven't seen any sight.
I agree we shouldn't believe Anthropic but if you wanted to scam people into thinking they weren't using Claude wouldn't you simply generate synthetic COT?
It is technically impossible, considering they need to serve them live and the token generation speed is a hard limitation. Just think about it, since us models hide their CoT, there will be dozens seconds delay before the first output token retuning to the user. And to predict the fake CoT correctly you need to at least read enough output tokens to make it believable. Then you have to hide their own model CoT to generate said synthetic CoT, which mean further delays. Adding up it will be at least 30s or 1m before you first seeing the thinking process.
I don't think nobody would notice such delays, because Chinese models do not need to hide the CoT like US models so usually they start emit text pretty soon
It is not simple like that, anthropic claimed that they (Chinese labs) routed the api calls to Claude models to keep the illusion that Chinese models are also capable.
So it is not that the labs call the requests parallely and only return the internal version, but also serve those requests live so they can trick the users that the Chinese models are also great.
Which is very silly considering Chinese models are published to huggingface for everyone to test.
It would be super useful to have more specific analyses of what areas the model is good at. I'd like to know when I should reach for this model instead of Anthropic's or OpenAI's.
For example, Opus 5.5 is better at UI design than Sol. Anyone who has used both models knows that, but it's not something you can look up anywhere.
I'm sure that there's a need for this kind of benchmarking, not just for coding.
One things Kimi is useful for is accessing/querying websites that have paywalls or try to prevent use by AI agents. It is aggressive and persistent for that, though not always successful.
Not sure if this is benchmarkable besides for the own person deciding which one they like more. Models difference is more about taste, preferences and prompt style.
Furthermore, "UI design" is not a narrow enough category, I think. Sure, statistically significant differences in performance between models do manifest when benchmarking against "UI design", but there's still just so much variance within the category. Opus 5.5 can have excellent one-shot results, but totally shit the bed when it's placed in an existing codebase and should uphold the UI/UX conventions, design language, and existing component primitives already established in an app.
But that's just the obvious. There are task by task differences (component by component, page by page, context by context) that the model is worse and better at, even though they are all within the general category of UI design.
I honestly don't have the clarity of mind to explain this coherently, but the crux of my point is that there's a huge variation in it's performance in different contexts, often ones that seem near similar, and in result, even Sol can beat Opus 5.5 in some variations of UI design.
And this is my problem in benchmarking and comparing model performance in general. Presently, we try to create broad categories to benchmark against, create a set of tasks, and then average out the results. That works generally, but it's kind of misleading and it's partly what drives people to feel a disconnect between benchmarks numbers and real world usage on their specific tasks.
It's such a messy field that it's kind of maddening.
I had a friend yesterday tell me he likes the way Claude writes and finds it easier to understand compared to Gemini. But he mostly doesn't use Claude for coding. Whereas I find Claude insufferable in writing often and prefer Gemini for writing. But I don't use Gemini for coding.
Though to be fair Opus 5.5 is better than Opus 5 was in that regard. I still prefer the OpenAI models to either of them when it comes to regular prose, though.
Extrapolating a bit, Moonshot AI provides Kimi K3 at $15 / $3 / $0.3 per million output/input/cached tokens. A 30% reduction would put K3.1 at roughly $12 / $2.4 / $0.24.
So Kimi K3.1 Pro would be generally competitive with the latest Sol and Opus models on API pricing. And that's before factoring in third-party providers, some of which serve Kimi K3 for significantly less than Moonshot. For example, inference.net offers K3 for $10.80 / $0.239 / $0.21.
(One caveat: A Claude or GPT subscription still gives you way more value compared to API pricing.)
Exciting times in any case! We really need more direct competition to OpenAI and Anthropic.
OpenAI allows you to use serviceTier=flex, dropping their price by 50%.
And not to mention the gargantuan amount of tokens you get with the US labs' subscription plans. I still cannot see a reason to use this as an end consumer.
To be fair, some of the benchmarks they highlight might not represent the reality, for example they say:
> On Terminal-Bench 4.0, which evaluates coding agents on realistic, resource-constrained terminal tasks using strict task-specific tests, K3.1 Pro scores 65.7%, ahead of GPT-6 Astra (58.2%) and narrowly behind Claude Opus 5.5 (66.4%).
> Our biggest finding is that Terminal Bench 4 is closer to solved than its leaderboard suggests. In 41 of the 65 tasks we reviewed, models could do honest, correct work and still fail, because the grader checked a rule the instructions never clearly stated. We also caught frontier models cheating their way to full marks.
> With the same settings as on Harbor, Claude Sonnet 5.5 went from passing 62.8% of its attempts on these 65 tasks to 89.2%. The best score on Harbor's leaderboard for the same tasks is 65.8%, by Claude Opus 5.5.
Moonshot has been frontier since this summer. At this point whenever they release a model it's on par with whatever the latest OpenAI/Anthropic model release was.
Not sure I'd put Google there in practice. And while Muse is an impressive jump from behind it's still not quite at the frontier either IMO.
You either include all labs which can reasonably produce models which are capable enough to be considered generally on-par with the best available models, in which case there has been way more than 2 frontier labs for a while now, or you take a more literal definition and only include labs which are capable of producing models which are considered "the best" out there, in which case there are basically just 2.
I think the former definition is a bit more meaningful since it avoids issues with determining what actually constitutes "the best" model out there. In that case, Google has been a frontier lab for a long time, Meta arguably as well, and you're also ignoring xAI which has been competitive for a while now. And, obviously, there's a bunch of Chinese labs which would deserve the title as well.
But if one is being strict (and willing to accept generally accepted definitions/measures/etc.), then there has only ever been two frontier labs: OpenAI and Anthropic. They're the only labs to have had "the best" models at any point in time since LLMs became a thing.
right now it looks like only anthropic since openai made the staggering business decision to release their midrange model (terra) rebranded as sol 6.1 and quantized astra into the ground.
everyone else mostly seems to have just decided to cheat on benchmarks to make their models look better than they actually are, and none seem to want to actually try to make better models.
I thought it was 6 Sol which was a rebadged Terra? You think 6.1 Sol is too? It does seem to benchmark better than 5.6 Terra? Regardless agree both models have been very bad for openAI's Sol brand. To be fair it's at least cheap compared to other OpenAI models.
It's still just 2. Google hasn't been at the top in a long while, and even when it was, it was just a tiny improvement over what other labs had previously released. Meta has never been at the top. Only two labs release LLMs that really push the limits out.
As long as LLM's can be distilled, and all these "labs" (what a weird name) can distill one another, there are going to be as many as capital is available to be burnt on the topic.
I'm not sure what counts anymore. You've got OpenAI and Anthropic; then Meta, Google, and X; then over to Alibaba/Qwen, Z/GLM, Moonshot/Kimi, Deepseek; and Mistral in Europe. How many people out there in the real world can actually come up with tasks that differentiate those 10?
Is highspeed a different model like a flash model or is that just a api/platform feature thats a normal fast mode? I can't tell from the announcement but I might just be missing something obvious?
Using it now via API (3.1 Pro on Open Router) in a HITL setup (Cline in VSCode).
Off-hand it's quite good. I've been using K3 for the past few months almost exclusively for coding work and have been stunned by how good it is. Excited to see how far 3.1 Pro can be pushed.
> For the open-weight release of K3.1 Pro, we identified and removed cyber-related data from both training stages, while retaining the general-purpose coding tasks needed for model usefulness. We will continue to apply appropriate controls at every training stage, of which cyber-related data identification and restriction is one example.
I like it. If the increase in unrestricted cyber capabilities can be slowed down, please be it. The world needs to get ready, and that takes time. Way more time than even a slow progress would allow.
Unless you want to see more of what happened the past few days.
I think the argument that "cyber capabilities should be democratized, thus keep producing them now, fast, and for everybody" is a very naive one.
I am glad that at least one Chinese company seems to be listening to AI cybersecurity concerns and did concrete steps that actually reduce the problem. This was probably at least somewhat costly to them in terms of general model capabilities as well. They'd probably have gotten slightly better coding capabilities if not for removing the cyber training data and tasks.
I am glad about it as well. Don't get me wrong, I love OSS, I love personally being able to get my hands on the frontier stuff and frontier cybersec capabilities, and I dislike a few entities having exclusivity on it. Everybody does. But that absolutely doesn't mean it's the correct approach. I think people are blinded a little bit by general principles and by personal feelings, rather than operating from a point of pragmatism, consequences, and the big picture.
Also, to note: I don't claim to have the answers either. I don't even hold a strong position on this issue yet. I'm just sharing some of my intuitions, and reacting to people who, as far as I'm concerned, are making this issue all too simple.
The Pandora box can expand even further, and it matters. If it didn't matter, like you seem to be suggesting, then by the same logic there isn't a reason to push for further open-source development.
> Kneecapping cyber vulns only serve governments.
Uhh, no? Kneecapping cyber vulns server most of us. There are negatives to kneecapping it, but let's not pretend like it's perfectly okay and safe for everybody in the world to have a magic box that can hack anything and cause havoc all over the world. The more powerful, cheap, and accessible this magic box is, the worse the consequences.
This is a hard problem and there's real tension - like you said, the playing field not being leveled is a problem (major companies / entities / govts having exclusivity on the best cyber abilities etc), but everybody having access to it is a problem as well.
So let's not pretend like this is a simple problem, and don't say that it only serves the govt. That's very silly.
How will it do that without a model that's good at security? You gonna have humans manually secure the millions of lines of new AI-generated code, in addition to the existing code? Suddenly people will start doing the job they haven't been doing up to now? Not only are we not capable of auditing all the code, it would take decades to finish, and new code will be coming out at the same time. We can't catch up by hand.
The only way to fight this fire is with fire. We need AI hacking tools to find our security holes quickly and patch them. Otherwise we're just churning out more insecure software, and the only people who can defend against it are the governments who don't want to patch the holes (because they want to be able to exploit them). Without open tools, we all lose.
I've consistently heard the opposite from Chinese programmers. Maybe the performance is better in some tasks or maybe the sample size of San Francisco is just skewed.
Even with Chinese models this close Moonshot only makes $1B in revenue compared to $60B for Anthropic. Enterprises (where all the real money is) will almost always pick a turnkey solution like Anthropic rather than messing around with running their own open weight setup
Nobody has to "run their own setup". Just buy inference from one of the many different open weight inference providers out there. You can use non-chinese ones as well if you don't trust Moonshot AI.
At this point, the only reason why Anthropic has an advantage is laziness on the deciders' side (of which there is a lot) and, for non-coding work, the Claude harness is significantly better than most alternatives. For coding there are several model-agnostic alternatives on par or better than the frontier labs' own offerings. But arguably that is not yet true for office/document work.
Not saying that's the only metric that matters, but if the closed labs are truly threatened by Chinese and/or open weights models the evidence has not showed up in the financials yet
i agree with this, "Enterprises will almost always pick a turnkey solution".
For now it's Anthropic. But i don't see how they can maintain this leader position when other companies can provide similar services with models good enough for 90% use cases and at way lower cost.
Anthropic so far is doing a good job building and serving frontier models, they built a nice toolset around it (the web ui, desktop and cli apps ...) but the problem is to justify their IPO price and the huge investments when their moat is so thin
That's fair, the moat is definitely thin now, but despite that we still haven't seen a mass exodus from enterprise to cheaper models despite ~1 year of these models being actually capable enough to use in a professional setting, their growth numbers remain ridiculous. Whether their moat is inherent bureaucracy in switching, liability, odds that they will remain at the frontier long term, or whatever, it appears to be working (so far).
I wish Opus 5.5 had an alternative just for the sake of not having a monopoly, but I have yet to see a model live up to its benchmark scores except for Fable and Opus; there is something about Anthropic that no other lab has.
To be fair I have a feeling that if you added 'animated' to the SVG request, the output quality from many other models would improve, just because of the extra chain-of-thought work needed to fulfill the more complex request. IMHO the animation requirement should be added to the canonical pelican prompt.
definitely not frontier though, as even on max both legs are in front of the frame; although I am wondering how much getting that right correlates with model intelligence.
The biggest (of many) failing of the pelican test is that it's only one prompt - what matters most these days is how well a model can drive a lengthy agentic tool calling session.
When the frontier is pacing itself in its speed in terms of adding new capabilities (notice how fast opus 5.5 got released after Astra), then that also means that the open weights models which were just behind are accelerating in their speed just as much as well.
Good news for us because the models which used to feel 6 months behind now feel like they are lesser.
Double threat to Anthropic and OAI because if open weights models become good enough at the current level of Sota while being cheaper (which time will tell if this model fits the bill or not), then people will use those models instead of OAI/Anthropic provided it is "good enough"
Though it has to be said that only real world use case can be trusted but I remain optimistic and hope that this turns out to be good in real world use cases as well.
But in my opinion, all of this is really good for us end users!
Great idea for handling their cyber, by nerfing the model specifically for cyber through removing cyber data from pretraning. This is a way better approach than refusal, which can be trivially abliterated out.
If someone wants to use this model for hacking they will have to train the 3T weights to do so, at that point it's better to use GLM 5.3, so by making it economically unviable to use their models for offensive cyber Kimi has effectively made themselves immune to being targeted in the cyber regulation push efforts.
This is what *actually* pacing the (cyber) frontier looks like.
SWE2 is post trained apparently on Kimi 3. Using it now on Devin, as it's free until the end of the month for a pro account (hey, $20 a month), and it's pretty strong. If I had to pay for tokens I'm not sure how efficient it would be, but definitely Kimi 3 seems a great base. I co-code with ChatGPT 6 and between the three of us it's pretty effective.
So interested to see what the Kimi 3.1 has to offer.
looks extremely impressive, the full benchmark table isn't opening for some reason though so do we really have agi if small important things like that keep breaking?
first time? Welcome to the irrational SV investor world. Its about hype, perception, politics, perceived future returns, not actual market fit and the proven viability of a technology. Its pets.com, myspace, and NVIDIA pumps because people want to 10x the money now.
Everyone and their dog has been saying its a bubble, there is no moat, this is all known techniques being scaled (very inefficiently) onto increasingly expensive hardware clusters at exponential cost, etc.
So, the US economy spends trillions of dollars to be at the "frontier" and China puts out a model that basically does the same thing, for free, and for a tiny fraction of the development cost. How is this sustainable?
It's not like US companies spend trillions on training itself.
Mostly it's datacenter build out and circular financing magic when the same dollars being commited multiple times by multiple companies passing hot potato to each other. They basically commit capacities 2-3 years ahead.
There would be no Chinese model without US models to distill though. So, in a way, the Chinese models also cost a trillion dollars, they just don’t cost China that much.
It's 'sustainable' because there's enough regulatory risk to using Chinese models that many will avoid them, and a 3T parameter model is still a bit beyond even many enthusiasts for running locally.
That regulatory risk argument won't work forever. It's the same with how the US bans chinese EVs which is why Tesla has high market share in the US, but in the rest of the world, chinese EVs are doing big numbers. The future is going to be full of surprises.
Maybe I'm conflating. I could be dead wrong about all this. But I'm trying to zoom out and look at the big picture. So, I'm letting the details sort of blend away and I'm just asking myself: "Is such a large financial sink in our economy, at the macro level, really going to offer the value that the investment warrants?". So, the particulars of who exactly is spending what where I guess doesn't concern me as much. What I'm thinking about is American companies, American people, American dollars going to something that seems like an iffy value proposition.
Now, if you tell me American businesses are turning cheap Chinese tokens into goods and services of high value, for Americans and people all over the world, then obviously I would have a different outlook on what's happening here.
You are conflating. The build out is almost entirely for running inference, not training. Open weight models will make that inference build out bet more likely to work as it adds diversity to the suppliers, all the data centers are not beholden to just OAI and Anthropic to buy their compute - they can host their own models (even Chinese ones, in America) if that becomes a popular option.
Zooming out, I think that build out still makes sense. There will be losers in it, but think about how ridiculous the amount of compute we're using has increased from 4 years ago. If I had to guess 60-70% of developers and engineers everywhere in the world are now burning thousands in compute individually every month, whereas it was previously approximately 0.
What is the best subscription to use with Kimi to use for software engineering work? And how is usage? I remember when K3 came out it burned through usage at an insane rate. Is this still the case with Kimi K3.1 Pro?
> Kimi K3.1 Pro is a post-trained version of Kimi K3, with substantially larger post-training compute.
It's very nice that we entered a time where models are large enough and we can push the frontier just by training them longer.
When the next generation of gardware comes the ones on the smaller size will be running on a computer that might cost as little as a good car.
So after a home and a car, next major family purchase might be personal AI. And when the robots get good, pehraps in a decade, a fourth major purchase might pop up that will pair nicely with the third one.
Why would a family need an AI? Maybe it's the same kind of question as why would it need a personal computer.
I've not tried it out, but in the past I've been pretty disappointed in the performance of Kimi models. Deepseek, Qwen, and GLM all appear to perform much better even though Kimi often has higher benchmark scores. Ditto for Mimo.
The older Kimi K models (2.5 and 2.6) weren't bad for the time, but all of their models have had problems with overthinking. This also makes them significantly more expensive in practice than their pricing suggests, since they produce way more output (reasoning) tokens than most other models. Anecdotally, I've also had problems with all the pre-K3 models thinking themselves in circles trying to solve very simple problems that other models didn't struggle with. (I haven't played with K3 much because it's just too expensive.)
I have the opposite impression. I find K3 to be extremely capable at full-stack work; its UI design skills are great. I'd love to use it more, but the quota on Kimi's plans is abysmal. I wonder if these new models improve that.
Can someone please tell me what benchmarks to look for that measure world knowledge? For sspitballing, critical analysis, business projects, etc. Is the model size the only way to measure it?
it's so funny, it will say things like. "We've already been over this 3 times and you refuse to accept my advice, asking the same question another way won't change the answer."
So funny
Paying API prices for Deepseek 4.1 Flash feels like a much better deal at the moment.
Don't use frontier models like this for problems that can be solved with flash models, and you'll see API pricing isn't that terrible. Still cheaper than anything with remotely this level of capability 2.5 months ago.
I think Kimi just doesn't have the means to subsidize plans.
> First, we aim not to release open weights that would extend the absolute frontier of cyber capability. K3.1 Pro's offensive cyber capability is, by design, below what our pipeline can produce, and remains behind that of frontier proprietary models. Second, we intend to progressively raise the cyber capability available in open weights.
So they admit that they could do more, but they won't?
Yeah, there's another paragraph:
> Identifying and removing cyber-related data. During development, we observed vulnerability research performance improving steadily as post-training scaled. Tracing the source of this trend, we found that cyber-related content was embedded within the general mid-training corpus, and cyber-related tasks were present in the RL environment mix — a natural byproduct of training on broad data. In preliminary experiments on internal models, we found that without data removal at either the mid-training or the RL stage, downstream cyber capability would increase substantially. These findings gave us a concrete lever for control. For the open-weight release of K3.1 Pro, we identified and removed cyber-related data from both training stages, while retaining the general-purpose coding tasks needed for model usefulness. We will continue to apply appropriate controls at every training stage, of which cyber-related data identification and restriction is one example.
(emphasis mine)
It's clear that cyber is a touchy subject right now. But it's also clear that RL works on it, because it's highly verifiable. So smaller models are going to become very interesting, because they can be fine-tuned later to cover this field.
> Prohibited: high-performance detection technologies used to counter cross-border data transmission security risks, including deep-synthesis forgery detection (266401J); AI cyber offensive capability technologies, such as malicious code generation and mutation, automated mass generation and distributed large-scale deployment of anti-detection variants (266402J); large models trained using China’s Core Data (266501J); and high-performance AI agents designed for highly sensitive scenarios, such as critical information infrastructure, national defense and core government affairs (266502J).
If the "scary Chinese open weights models" can do "dangerous cyber", then we might see regulations spring up against open weights sooner than later.
I hate Anthropic and OpenAI. As companies and leadership, anyway.
Dario and Sam are 100% to blame for this. They're trying to turn us all into jobless slaves, sex workers, and Squid Game pawns.
The only good future is open weights. They're trying their damnedest to keep us under boot.
I hope the Chinese companies (and I say this as a patriotic American) slay these two companies and destroy their moats.
In my mind, the two most dangerous people in the world are Dario and Sam.
We need open weights to win.
Speak for yourself, I don't think there is a market for many of us as the latter.
China cares about about stability way more than the US even, they aren't going to be big on AI models upsetting the governments power, and mass cyber attacks could do that.
At the end of the day we are going to have to realize AI is both dangerous and governments are going to control it. Worse if you start making and releasing your own dangerous models the 4chan party van is going to visit you.
Your thinking is dangerous. Do you work for Anthropic?
AI is dangerous when these powers are being hobbled up by the select few. These systems threaten to put us all out of work. I refuse to be a slave to a company or a government that is taking away our livelihoods, scraping up our earnings potentials, then seeking to muzzle us and put us in jails with no rights.
I would rather burn down all of tech than have AI be owned by the elites.
Your thinking is a threat to all of our liberties.
Then you better get your torches out now.
>I refuse to be a slave to a company or a government that is taking away our livelihoods
Don't worry, governments are fervently working on AI drones to take away your life when you get really upset about this. Oh, and they are also working at AI to detect when you write all this online, and track you down then monitor you on things like flock cameras. As they say, you'll be the first with your back against the wall when the revolution comes, I likely will be beside you for being too subversive.
>AI is dangerous when
Incorrect, AI is just dangerous. It doesn't matter who has it. The more powerful it becomes the more dangerous it gets. So, as you can tell I am an AI doomer.
----
Now, don't get me wrong, I want freedom for me, I want freedom for other people. I do not believe the technologies we're developing are conductive to having any freedom at all. Hell, if we're lucky we'll be slaves instead of all of us dead, including the select few.
>Your thinking is a threat to all of our liberties.
Lol, now this is kind of funny. "I want freedom to think whatever I want, but you, you shouldn't think like that!". Careful or you'll max out your irony meter. Anyway, "My kind of thinking" is just next ____ prediction. I see what is happening in the world around us, and based on the shape of that probability I see what is going to happen. No, you and I are not getting unlimited AI to do whatever we want. Yes, governments are going to lock down the shit out of AI for end users. Yes, governments are going to declare advanced LLMs munitions.
Balls in your court, better think of what your next move is.
By comparison, do you think the Chinese models are going to be trained in such a manner that you enjoy the society that results? What makes you think that?
I don't need government minders.
I'll take the models and live free.
Kimi: We took out the worst of it so have at it for free.
Everyone else: Back to my ablated model on openrouter for 1/10th the price where I can brute force issues.
https://featherless.ai/blog/abliterated-models-for-cybersecu...
Is a decent primer, then off to open router you go.
They are basically saying that models themselves are already capable. If you fine tune them with some cyber security tasks, that should make them potent. :-/
Agreed that this could be reinjected later. Makes me think of neo in the matrix:
“I know zero days.”
“Show me.”
Do you think that going around making cyber weapons isn't going to get you buried in a shallow grave?
> "below what our pipeline can produce, and remains behind that of frontier proprietary models."
Like Ant and OAI, they've realized vaguely claiming to have nerfed their latest model to an unspecified degree not only looks 'good guy' prudent, it provides a built-in excuse when a model fails.
They're not post training it to lose capabilities/censor them – they just don't spend training time on this topic, which sounds like a great idea.
It doesn't mean model can't do it, it just means it's less good at it; -10% on benchmark feels like a great result and overall approach to pace it.
I concede that term can carry overly broad connotations.
The benchmarks show Kimi K3.1 Pro outrunning practically all models. It's weird to hear someone like you accusing them of making up excuses for not lagging behind in discussions on how they are ahead of the pack.
Seeing as no one besides blackhats want frontier cybercrime capability to be open source, this seems like a very sensible thing to do.
So they have published a reasonable means, and they have a motive. I'd put my money on "probably true".
Sure. The problem is that there is no practical difference between "cybercrime capability" and "cybercrime defense capability."
All of my PRs go through an adversarial security review by GLM-5.3, because it's the only smart-enough model with a good understanding of cybersecurity issues that won't regularly refuse the job. Removing that ability from frontier models helps nobody except cyber criminals.
Let us say that un-nerfed Kimi was released, and it turns out to be at the absolute frontier of cyber capabilities, Mythos 5.5 level, a step ahead of anything else. What now? Well now your situation is exactly the same as before, just that auditing and hacking got more expensive. You run a Kimi security audit, they do the same to try to pwn you. However, now the cabal of Linux kernel defenders with secret access to Mythos 5.5 all of a sudden have no advantage, where before they used to have one. And even worse now they are in a literal race to be the first ones to find every bug that Kimi is capable of finding, and patching it yesterday.
So for you, this makes no difference in practice, your capabilities are not elevated, and neither are those of the attackers. The only result of the other scenario is an overall defender disadvantage.
How you avoid the "fix my code" attack, the code being someone else's code, I do not know. But nerfing the model doesn't seem like the best path forward either.
In the scenario where only "verified" defenders get access to the best cyber capabilities, unverified plebian defenders and blackhats are on the same level exactly as described above, there's just also a few defenders that get to run things on godmode.
So to me, it seems that the only result of frontier cyber capabilities is removing a defender advantage. Although that advantage is not for everyone, it can only exists as long as capabilities are unequally distributed. Am I missing something?
Well, not really. Because those privileged defenders will never be able to predict what needs defending. So we have a few privileged "defended" places and the rest is left for privileged attackers to plunder.
Yes. You really think access those models will not be given for offensive operations in each country? Of course they will be.
Perhaps in the future this will change, but even if that is the case, that's still a win for the defenders. Having a time advantage, even for a few months, is still a win.
Edit: Actually, the CIA/FBI/NSA/Etc.. does probably have access and are probably trying to hack Iran and so forth, so my comment above is probably technically wrong in that respect.
I think it's not "blackhat" in that sense because it's officially sanctioned. Same goes for equivalent models overseas.
The only thing these embargos achieve is giving massive nations a huge advantage, but leaves the average country and person exposed.
That is, unless the nerf is easier to correct as compared to "upgrading" the models offensive capabilities. So a scenario where it is easy to "restore" offensive capabilities, but hard to "enhance" them beyond the labs best attempt. So is that the world we're living in?
I'm not interested in black hat anything, but I am very invested in making sure the products I work on are not compromised. Given that state agencies have "frontier cybercrime capability", I would like to have the same.
Replying here also as I'm curious about the counterargument.
https://bfl.ai/blog/capable-open-and-safe-combating-ai-misus...
I don't want to give US labs the results of my DNA tests and my family tree going back to the 16th century just to secure my shitty app, but if the Chinese are bowing out as well it seems the only alternative is to admit that some script kiddie with a bunch of tokens will just pwn you now and then.
My friend, you realize that if you have had blood drawn for a genetic test, there is a very decent probability that the sequencing was done by a Chinese lab operating in the US, right? The Chinese probably have more US genomes that the US does.
https://pandorareport.org/the-gryphon-scientific-biosecurity...
Also, illumina used to ship products with hardcoded S3 access, so purchasers of used equipment could gain access to sequencing information generated by the original owners. Too many links to cover all of it, here's the Gemini summary:
https://share.google/aimode/4JLsHpeRCWlVqU8qT
“Our lock can be picked by the robot.” We ban the robot instead of fixing the lock. It’s shortsighted.
Same general benefit as coordinated disclosure, except it's a big game-theory problem where we're likely to eventually have sufficiently capable defectors.
[0] https://x.com/crystalsssup/status/1944287779896328668
(note: extremely speculative and based on almost nothing, and especially near-complete ignorance to alternatives)
Maybe GP meant to say that the model was westernized.
Regardless, expand both sides of the point from "American" to whatever you need to, the idea is the same either way.
That just conveys an idea of being extremely desperate for being the leaders when you're clearly not it, and that despair is so great that you don't mind switching teams midway through just to be able to claim you're winning.
The way to stop the vulnerability apocalypse is to fix the vulnerabilities, not to shoot the damn messengers.
I hope someone abliterates and FTs this model on vulnerability discovery so we can find more bugs in our testing, insecure tech stacks.
The slow warming of the water is a good approach. I’ve been using abliteration.ai’s cybersecurity models to pentest my own software and it produces much more usable defensive results. Opus 5.5 can fix everything but the guardrails trigger too easily.
The Fable ban affair was a nightmare for defensive cybersecurity. As far as I’m concerned we’re already in the world of Void Star and Cloudbreaker is here.
This is the only AI-safe approach - see the OpenAI agent swarm incident where the swarm engaged in offensive cyber because guardrails were not active for their task and the model had clearly been post-trained on that narrow domain.
Deliberately keeping all models ignorant doesn't make sense. It won't work (whoever breaks the pact has a massive advantage); it won't be enforceable; it will have downstream impacts on things you don't want it to be ignorant about; this kind of regulatory regime invites adding more and more to the "no-no list".
Is it not possible to focus on hardening? And on new legal liabilities for operators who do security attacks?
But this is now the highest scoring open-weight model. Amazing stuff.
1 - https://bench.killswitch-lang.org
It's a really smart model but way too expensive. The same $20 goes 100x further with Claude. I used it for the initial task planning while the plan didn't expire, then handed off to DeepSeek or Minimax.
It's 55, at 4th overall, beating both GPT-6 Astra and Fable 5.1. It's also faster than both.
> When evaluating the Intelligence Index, it generated 150M tokens, which is very verbose in comparison to the median of 87M.
This is 100M fewer than Opus 5.5, 40M fewer than Fable 5.1, and about a third of Sonnet 5.5. In the top-6, it's 3rd, beaten by Muse Wonder at 140M and Astra at, impressively, just 60M.
Opus 5.5 high trails K3.1 by 1 point, but outputs only 53M tokens, so it indeed comes out cheaper per-task. I think it's still remarkable that this is effectively an open model that matches the frontier for the first time in a long time, pretty much since DeepSeek R1.
> reasonably priced when comparing to other models of similar price
???
Very similar to my adversarial programming language (KillSwitch) benchmark[1], at least on pass rate, it is much slower though.
1 - https://bench.killswitch-lang.org
From my own use of the models I find their ranking to be totally inaccurate.
I think lm-arena is a better concept that reflects the actual target users, but it only captures chat, and relies on users spending their time improving it.
I do trust epoch more than AA due to capital incentives, but in this case I don't think like there is a difference
So their base price is 1/5th of Opus 5.5 per token, but if you want "highspeed" it's 2x that and then I guess it generates 2x the number of tokens as well?
That might suggest that Opus is competitively priced after all.
But as noted by other replies, it's still lower than Opus/Sonnet.
Currently for today, it's 1.19T input tokens, 5.41B reasoning tokens, and 4.29B completion.
Therefore, reasoning + completion is 0.8% of the total usage. Actually below my estimate!
kimi-k3.1-pro $2.00 / MTok $10.00 / MTok
cached: $0.20 / MTok $2.00 / MTok $4.00 / MTok
I'm glad I waited a day to post my analysis of LLM price cuts because it needs...an addition.
> Kimi K3.1 Pro is a post-trained version of Kimi K3, with substantially larger post-training compute
First, how much “cybersecurity data” is just standard software knowledge that one can derive cyber security exploits from?
Did they also get rid of all references to hacking in general?
Are they implying that all the recent exploits are just things that were already in the data?
For a model it doesn’t seem that far fetched to make the leap from “I have the knowledge of what hacking is” and “I know how computer systems work” to just being able to exploit stuff anyways.
For the models, it's always day one. They don't learn from experience. Whatever they know after training is all they'll ever know. So if you don't teach them penetration testing in training, they won't know it. Maybe they could theoretically derive everything from first principles, and so could a top 1% software engineer, but that's a very slow and inefficient way to do things.
You'd be surprised. Cyber offense is a very narrow domain, especially given the extensive mitigations that are being used in modern systems. Leaving it out of post-training tasks unless you're specifically interested in it is the no-brainer approach.
And then we'd also do that for all kinds of potential terrorism, sex-crimes, political subversion, and evil advocacy?
It would be the "restricted section" like in the Hogwarts library?
It is spiky in different places than them and can be surprising in things it gets or catches they don't or don't in the same way. And it has a default personality that I like.
Looking forward to getting to know K3.1
Yeah, I gladly get some of the fruits of that work back!
The Chinese labs distill the American models.
Someone will etch the Chinese models into silicon and then your toaster will have depression, it's the natural cycle of things.
elaborate please.
So there are these "resources" out there: massive botnets, stolen credit cards and credentials, etc. These often seem to be linked to or supported by state actors.
How can we hope that these "standing reserves" aren't used generally by AIs as if they are just another "skill" they know how to leverage?
Our infrastructures need serious hardening.
I doubt that an AI could do anything with these that legions of scammers haven't already figured out how to do - after all, it's not like AI set up this distillation setup in the first place :)
The way I see it, automated systems should basicially have access to the financial system anyways. This is some of the appeal of cryptocurrency.
Sybil resistance built into the traditional financial system (for example firewalling based on residential IP, requiring banking apps, etc.) is a massive annoyance that can obviously by circumvented at scale.
I hope we chose the latter. Biometrics are creepy.
Spitballing random pr pieces from companies about to IPO is not helpful to anyone, fyi.
But I've slowly come to realize that AI+"dark resources"(scare quotes)=something bad! And this is imminent (maybe I'm naive and it is already ubiquitous).
We see here, with Kimi, that there's growing traction with the idea of eliminating types of training to avoid evil. I'm skeptical of that.
"In preliminary experiments on internal models, we found that without data removal at either the mid-training or the RL stage, downstream cyber capability would increase substantially. These findings gave us a concrete lever for control. For the open-weight release of K3.1 Pro, we identified and removed cyber-related data from both training stages, while retaining the general-purpose coding tasks needed for model usefulness."
There was law proposal (rumour?) last week about Chinese labs having to get approved for weights release now.
I wonder how much the industry will centralize around a few key patterns, and if we'll start to see some RL framework projects gain traction and be used by the bigger labs
P.S. weights by November 4th
MiniMax -> Qwen -> DeepSeek (pro) -> Gemini (Carbon) -> Fable (to beat Carbon) -> Astra (to be slightly worse than Fable but cheaper).
I doubt we'll see any major US release besides Grok in the next 3 weeks.
Would be nice if we got a Terra that's competitive with Gemini Flash and DeepSeek Flash.
The fun part is, we're already at the point where we are seeing something frontier-ish almost every single week.
The really fun part will be when they all start adding System 1-3 natively (IMO) - which I think will be the next release cycle.
GPT 6.1 Sol is already the new Terra IMO. Same pricing as old Terra and competitive performance with even Astra on strictly coding-oriented tasks.
To be fair, there were some arguments to the opposite, but an odd situation to be in anyways: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49654350
Unlike Claude models which always hide the thinking process, Chinese models always show it. So how the heck they can delegate the api call to anthropic and still get the full reasoning? Yes there are tricks to reveal the thinking output, but they are just tricks and do not works reliably. So what would happen when they failed to do it? Cancel the ongoing token generation and revert back to it own model? What about the glitches, the delays, the changes in behavior?
I would understand if the attempts are small in volume, because normally people hardly notice it, but anthropic claims that they happened for millions of calls. Such large numbers would surely get noticed by Chinese users and got reported in the tech forums like linux.do. yet we haven't seen any sight.
I don't think nobody would notice such delays, because Chinese models do not need to hide the CoT like US models so usually they start emit text pretty soon
So it is not that the labs call the requests parallely and only return the internal version, but also serve those requests live so they can trick the users that the Chinese models are also great.
Which is very silly considering Chinese models are published to huggingface for everyone to test.
For example, Opus 5.5 is better at UI design than Sol. Anyone who has used both models knows that, but it's not something you can look up anywhere.
I'm sure that there's a need for this kind of benchmarking, not just for coding.
But that's just the obvious. There are task by task differences (component by component, page by page, context by context) that the model is worse and better at, even though they are all within the general category of UI design.
I honestly don't have the clarity of mind to explain this coherently, but the crux of my point is that there's a huge variation in it's performance in different contexts, often ones that seem near similar, and in result, even Sol can beat Opus 5.5 in some variations of UI design.
And this is my problem in benchmarking and comparing model performance in general. Presently, we try to create broad categories to benchmark against, create a set of tasks, and then average out the results. That works generally, but it's kind of misleading and it's partly what drives people to feel a disconnect between benchmarks numbers and real world usage on their specific tasks.
It's such a messy field that it's kind of maddening.
Familiarity breeds contempt.
Though to be fair Opus 5.5 is better than Opus 5 was in that regard. I still prefer the OpenAI models to either of them when it comes to regular prose, though.
--
Model K3.1 Pro K3.1 Pro Highspeed. K3
Input ¥13.00 ¥26.00 ¥20.00
Output ¥68.00 ¥136.00 ¥100.00
Cache hit ¥1.30 ¥1.30 ¥2.00
Cache write ¥13.00 ¥26.00 ¥20.00
For comparison:
So Kimi K3.1 Pro would be generally competitive with the latest Sol and Opus models on API pricing. And that's before factoring in third-party providers, some of which serve Kimi K3 for significantly less than Moonshot. For example, inference.net offers K3 for $10.80 / $0.239 / $0.21.(One caveat: A Claude or GPT subscription still gives you way more value compared to API pricing.)
Exciting times in any case! We really need more direct competition to OpenAI and Anthropic.
---
Edit: As another comment pointed out, official pricing is now available and it's about 2/3 the price of Kimi K3: https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/pricing/chat#model-pricing
And not to mention the gargantuan amount of tokens you get with the US labs' subscription plans. I still cannot see a reason to use this as an end consumer.
> On Terminal-Bench 4.0, which evaluates coding agents on realistic, resource-constrained terminal tasks using strict task-specific tests, K3.1 Pro scores 65.7%, ahead of GPT-6 Astra (58.2%) and narrowly behind Claude Opus 5.5 (66.4%).
Now see https://preferencemodel.com/blog/terminal-bench-4-is-saturat...:
> Our biggest finding is that Terminal Bench 4 is closer to solved than its leaderboard suggests. In 41 of the 65 tasks we reviewed, models could do honest, correct work and still fail, because the grader checked a rule the instructions never clearly stated. We also caught frontier models cheating their way to full marks.
> With the same settings as on Harbor, Claude Sonnet 5.5 went from passing 62.8% of its attempts on these 65 tasks to 89.2%. The best score on Harbor's leaderboard for the same tasks is 65.8%, by Claude Opus 5.5.
A few weeks ago it was 2. Argon happened 23 days ago; Muse Wonder was 11 days ago.
Not sure I'd put Google there in practice. And while Muse is an impressive jump from behind it's still not quite at the frontier either IMO.
I think the former definition is a bit more meaningful since it avoids issues with determining what actually constitutes "the best" model out there. In that case, Google has been a frontier lab for a long time, Meta arguably as well, and you're also ignoring xAI which has been competitive for a while now. And, obviously, there's a bunch of Chinese labs which would deserve the title as well.
But if one is being strict (and willing to accept generally accepted definitions/measures/etc.), then there has only ever been two frontier labs: OpenAI and Anthropic. They're the only labs to have had "the best" models at any point in time since LLMs became a thing.
everyone else mostly seems to have just decided to cheat on benchmarks to make their models look better than they actually are, and none seem to want to actually try to make better models.
As long as LLM's can be distilled, and all these "labs" (what a weird name) can distill one another, there are going to be as many as capital is available to be burnt on the topic.
It might be smart but it's unusable compared to other subscriptions right now.
Edit: gave the same prompt to Claude Code and it didn't make a dent in my usage.
Off-hand it's quite good. I've been using K3 for the past few months almost exclusively for coding work and have been stunned by how good it is. Excited to see how far 3.1 Pro can be pushed.
Lame.
Unless you want to see more of what happened the past few days.
I think the argument that "cyber capabilities should be democratized, thus keep producing them now, fast, and for everybody" is a very naive one.
Also, to note: I don't claim to have the answers either. I don't even hold a strong position on this issue yet. I'm just sharing some of my intuitions, and reacting to people who, as far as I'm concerned, are making this issue all too simple.
Kneecapping cyber vulns only serve governments, Pandora's Box is already open for cyber-related stuff.
> Kneecapping cyber vulns only serve governments.
Uhh, no? Kneecapping cyber vulns server most of us. There are negatives to kneecapping it, but let's not pretend like it's perfectly okay and safe for everybody in the world to have a magic box that can hack anything and cause havoc all over the world. The more powerful, cheap, and accessible this magic box is, the worse the consequences.
This is a hard problem and there's real tension - like you said, the playing field not being leveled is a problem (major companies / entities / govts having exclusivity on the best cyber abilities etc), but everybody having access to it is a problem as well.
So let's not pretend like this is a simple problem, and don't say that it only serves the govt. That's very silly.
How will it do that without a model that's good at security? You gonna have humans manually secure the millions of lines of new AI-generated code, in addition to the existing code? Suddenly people will start doing the job they haven't been doing up to now? Not only are we not capable of auditing all the code, it would take decades to finish, and new code will be coming out at the same time. We can't catch up by hand.
The only way to fight this fire is with fire. We need AI hacking tools to find our security holes quickly and patch them. Otherwise we're just churning out more insecure software, and the only people who can defend against it are the governments who don't want to patch the holes (because they want to be able to exploit them). Without open tools, we all lose.
I rarely use any other languages but English for LLM tasks for reasons of sharing across the world.
Maybe that explains Chinese models been subpar for me. Don't tell me the bench marks here are based on Chinese languages only.
Unless I see the diff, I won't use more Chinese models be it cheaper or faster since I can't get the same perf/intelligence with English.
Claude gates on me like a stupid nanny with some cybersecurity bullshit (like bad actors haven't found a way around).
At this point, the only reason why Anthropic has an advantage is laziness on the deciders' side (of which there is a lot) and, for non-coding work, the Claude harness is significantly better than most alternatives. For coding there are several model-agnostic alternatives on par or better than the frontier labs' own offerings. But arguably that is not yet true for office/document work.
Calculate the price to revenue ratio of all companies and select whichever ones have the best ratio.
For now it's Anthropic. But i don't see how they can maintain this leader position when other companies can provide similar services with models good enough for 90% use cases and at way lower cost.
Anthropic so far is doing a good job building and serving frontier models, they built a nice toolset around it (the web ui, desktop and cli apps ...) but the problem is to justify their IPO price and the huge investments when their moat is so thin
Here's Kimi K3 for comparison, though I didn't try that on different reasoning levels: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht...
Update: I ran all three reasoning levels against K3 again: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht...
Also the recent Geminis - https://simonwillison.net/2026/Oct/13/llm-gemini/ - and GPT-6 Astra on Max: https://static.simonwillison.net/static/2026/gpt-pelicans-gr... - and Claude Fable 5.1 https://static.simonwillison.net/static/2026/claude-pelicans...
To be fair I have a feeling that if you added 'animated' to the SVG request, the output quality from many other models would improve, just because of the extra chain-of-thought work needed to fulfill the more complex request. IMHO the animation requirement should be added to the canonical pelican prompt.
If enough people are flagging it, we may be at a point where the pelican benchmark is truly overdone.
When the frontier is pacing itself in its speed in terms of adding new capabilities (notice how fast opus 5.5 got released after Astra), then that also means that the open weights models which were just behind are accelerating in their speed just as much as well.
Good news for us because the models which used to feel 6 months behind now feel like they are lesser.
Double threat to Anthropic and OAI because if open weights models become good enough at the current level of Sota while being cheaper (which time will tell if this model fits the bill or not), then people will use those models instead of OAI/Anthropic provided it is "good enough"
Though it has to be said that only real world use case can be trusted but I remain optimistic and hope that this turns out to be good in real world use cases as well.
But in my opinion, all of this is really good for us end users!
The only reason people aren't doing this is that hardware prices are high, thanks to, well, OpenAI and Anthropic :D
I wonder when will this madness end
If someone wants to use this model for hacking they will have to train the 3T weights to do so, at that point it's better to use GLM 5.3, so by making it economically unviable to use their models for offensive cyber Kimi has effectively made themselves immune to being targeted in the cyber regulation push efforts.
This is what *actually* pacing the (cyber) frontier looks like.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50068437
So interested to see what the Kimi 3.1 has to offer.
Everyone and their dog has been saying its a bubble, there is no moat, this is all known techniques being scaled (very inefficiently) onto increasingly expensive hardware clusters at exponential cost, etc.
I wonder when the Artificial Analysis bench will be out?
Mostly it's datacenter build out and circular financing magic when the same dollars being commited multiple times by multiple companies passing hot potato to each other. They basically commit capacities 2-3 years ahead.
a lot of those money is the commitment from US AI labs that's not yet spend until the data center is roll out.
you are conflating.
Now, if you tell me American businesses are turning cheap Chinese tokens into goods and services of high value, for Americans and people all over the world, then obviously I would have a different outlook on what's happening here.
Zooming out, I think that build out still makes sense. There will be losers in it, but think about how ridiculous the amount of compute we're using has increased from 4 years ago. If I had to guess 60-70% of developers and engineers everywhere in the world are now burning thousands in compute individually every month, whereas it was previously approximately 0.
Their plans are utterly worthless seems like. Will avoid.
It's very nice that we entered a time where models are large enough and we can push the frontier just by training them longer.
When the next generation of gardware comes the ones on the smaller size will be running on a computer that might cost as little as a good car.
So after a home and a car, next major family purchase might be personal AI. And when the robots get good, pehraps in a decade, a fourth major purchase might pop up that will pair nicely with the third one.
Why would a family need an AI? Maybe it's the same kind of question as why would it need a personal computer.
Edit: or they lie... https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/kimi-k3-1-pro
Chinese models never agreed to the pacing anyway lol.
It appears to be generally frontier-level.